How Does The Immune System Work?
Does the immune system cells ever detect anything that they kill by themselves?
I know that damaged and defective cells that cannot self-repair request the immune cells to kill them.
I know that infected cells request the immune cells to kill them AND provide the immune system cells with fragments of the pathogens so that the immune cells can detect the pathogens.
I know that the immune cells really only kill pathogens where there is damaged cells and an inflammatory response.
I don't believe that cancer cells evade the immune system because it is cells that inform the immune system and not the immune system recognizing different cells and destroying them.
I know autoimmunity is not understood but I suspect that there too the immune cells are instructed to kill certain body cells erroneously. But let's exclude this is there is no scientific knowledge.
I don't see anywhere that the immune cells patrol and detect and destroy without:
1. having been instructed/ informed or
2. have seen the pathogens before and thus have antibodies to recognize pathogens.
Innate immunity does not requires instructions
Detailed Answer:
Hello madam,
Thank you for asking an academic question at HCM.
I would like to give you information as follows:
1. There are basically two types of immunity: innate immunity and acquired immunity.
What you have described is all about acquired immunity. It has cells such as Lymphocytes (T-lympthocytes & B-lymphocytes), neutrophils & others.
2. T-lymphocytes are of many types - killer cells, helper cells and memory cells.
As the names suggest - helper cells give signals to other cells to kill or a cell or not.
Memory cells tells immune system to build a stronger immune response if an organism has already come contact with immune system in past.
Killer cells kill cells, but they need signals from other types of cells, especially helper cells.
B lymphocytes produce immunoglobulins (they are of 5 types) which are important for killing a microbe. Again, B lymphocytes need signals from T lymphocytes and others to produce antibodies.
So as long as one is talking about "acquired immunity", yes, it requires instructions and it works better if it has seen the pathogen before.
3. "Innate immunity" does not have such cells. It has its own cells, proteins & defense mechanisms which are quite different from those of acquired immunity.
I would like to mention some details of this immunity:
a. Its role is more or less of that of an initial protection. i.e., before lymphocytes and macrophages etc come into the picture
b. It works only against microbes. i.e., it cannot cause autoimmune disorders, cancers or allergies.
c. It is always present in all the healthy individuals.
d. It responds immediately. i.e., it does not have to wait for signals by other cells, recognition and memory etc,
4. Example of innate immunity are -
a. acid secretions in stomach - they kill so many pathogens and prevent them enter lower in the gastrointestinal tract.
b. There are some substances in tears, urine, saliva, respiratory and gastrointestinal secretions which can kill pathogens. They also expel pathogens.
c. Even pH is important against some organisms. e.g., vaginal pH is acidic due to some secretions which protect against some bacterias. If secretions are not proper or after menopause, the pH can change and a woman can get urine infections etc.
d. If talking about "cells", there are cells known as phagocytes, natural killer cells (NK cells) which are part of innate immune system. They directly identify what is called PAMS (pathogen-associated molecular patterns) in the bacteria and kill them directly without need for signals or inflammation.
e. Complement system, which is also a part of innate immunity, is a system of proteins, which directly recognizes some components of pathogens (including some viruses, bacteria, even cancer cells) and kills them by activation of complement cascade. There are 2 major pathways that this complement system can be activated - classical pathway and alternative pathway. This system also does not require signals from other cells as well as inflammation.
5. In fact, of course, our acquired immunity requires "training" and memory and so many things and it is very well developed in mammals.
It is the innate immunity that is present in us since birth and in fact it is the dominant system in plants, fungi, insects and primitive multi-cellular organisms for defense.
Hope above information will be useful to you.
Thank you & Regards,
Dr Parin N Parmar
One issue. What evidence is there that the innate immunity kill cancer cells?
I have found that cancer cells are deliberately created (although for erroneous reasons) and the immune system protects and assists cancer cells. And furthermore some cancer stem cells give rise to what I call "superior combat cells" that can launch cytotoxic attacks on many different types of tissues. I suspect they are assisted in this action by immune cells.
Agree, controversial role in carcinogenesis
Detailed Answer:
Hello madam,
Thank you for your appreciation and follow-up.
Role of complement system in carcinogenesis is controversial.
It is true that some products released by cancer cells can activate alternate pathway of complement system. (I would suggest you to review complement system and its activation pathways).
It is also true that MAC (Membrane attack complex) is the final product of complement cascade activation, which causes destruction of cells by making pores in cell membranes thus causing cell lysis.
However, in carcinogenesis, the evidence is contradictory. On other side, there is also evidence that activation of complement cascade contributes to chronic inflammation and may assist growth mitotically active cells.
So at present it is not clear whether complement system actually controls or promotes carcinogenesis!
Therefore, so far I am not aware of any treatment of cancer which utilizes complement system.
I am not aware of superior combat cells. But yes, I would agree that role of immune system in carcinogenesis is very interesting and complex.
As an example, I can think of role of intracystic administration of BCG vaccine for urinary bladder cancer. This is utilization of immune system for treatment of cancer. On other side, as you said, immune system can assist carcinogenesis.
By the way, my knowledge in oncology is very basic only.
Hope my answer will be helpful to you.
Thank you & Regards,
Dr Parin N Parmar
I just got one question right now.
The tumor cells down-regulate for certain proteins on their surface that other cells have so the immune cells don't see them. Is this also true of immune cells themselves. Are normal immune cells also lacking these proteins?
It is much more complex than it seems
Detailed Answer:
Hello madam,
Thank you for your appreciation and follow-up.
Actually, the whole immune system, especially, the acquired immune system is very very complex.
Of course, the normal immune cells do not have proteins that make them susceptible to recognition and destruction.
But the process of recognition is also very complex. It takes interactions between antigen presenting cells, T-lymphocytes (helper cells), and other types of cells also.
Thus one type of cell along with another types of cell can jointly give signals to destructive cells. So many complex reactions occur before actual destruction of a foreign cell occurs. This much care is taken by nature so that self-cells are not falsely destructed as well as foreign harmful cells are not escaped from destruction.
Despite such great care, of course, something can go wrong and that is converted into cancer or autoimmune disorders or allergic disorders.
Hope above answer will be helpful to you.
I am sure you will find the whole immune system and its processes very interesting.
Wish you all the best.
Thank you & Regards,
Dr. Parin N. Parmar