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What Does Rise In CEA Count After Chemotherapy Indicate?

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Posted on Tue, 5 May 2015
Question: What if cea is not reducing after first chemo round in a mestatic colon cancer person ?
doctor
Answered by Dr. Vivek Chail (48 minutes later)
Brief Answer:
Transient rise in CEA means chemotherapy is working

Detailed Answer:
Hi XXXX,
Thanks for writing in to us.

I have read through your query in detail.
Please find my observations below.

1. Research has been done on level of CEA before and after chemotherapy in patients of colon cancer.

2. It is understood that an initial rise in CEA level during effective chemotherapy in colorectal cancer patients may not always indicate progression of disease but may be a transient CEA surge in patients responding to chemotherapy with Oxaliplatin Combination Chemotherapy.

3. Saying that rise in CEA means treatment response is poor is completely wrong.

4. CEA level is not the only factor to measure response to chemotherapy.

5. Your father should complete the course of chemotherapy scheduled as given by oncologist.

Hope this answers your question. Please feel free to correct any oversight in my interpretation of your problems and discuss them in detail as per your requirements.

Hope your query is answered.
Do write back if you have any doubts.

Regards,
Dr.Vivek
Above answer was peer-reviewed by : Dr. Pradeep Vitta
doctor
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Follow up: Dr. Vivek Chail (48 minutes later)
Thanks
He was initially stage 3, an now stage 4.

He has liver mets and few peritoneal nodules . Problem is irinotecan started in October last year and cea was rising by 1-2 points each month .and scan showed disease progression .

So this
Time with oxyplatin and raltitrexed , it is doing the same , rising cea . It was 65 before this regime started three weeks ago and now 78!

Such a big jump . If was working it
Would reduce right ?
doctor
Answered by Dr. Vivek Chail (24 minutes later)
Brief Answer:
More cycles to be given as oxyplatin and raltitrexed works in most patients

Detailed Answer:
Hi XXXX,
Thanks for writing back with an update.

1. We have discussed the oxyplatin and raltitrexed therapy last week and I think his treatment is going in the right direction given that avastin and SIRT are not recommended.

2. Coming to CEA levels, 20 percent rise is significant surge doe to treatment and if his CEA has risen from 65 just before treatment started and 78 after a cycle then this can still qualify as an expected surge considering that he is taking Oxaliplatin Combination Chemotherapy.

3. In my opinion it will be early to call it as failure of Oxaliplatin Combination Chemotherapy without giving more cycles.

4. You also need to see his general condition, blood count, hematocrit and platelets after chemotherapy cycles are over.

5. Cancer treatment in metastatic colon cancer is a challenge when first line medicine like irinotecan show poor response.

6. Alternative treatments have with Oxaliplatin Combination Chemotherapy has shown control of cancer spread and slightly extending patient survival.

7. Please allow some more time and monitoring and I am sure Oxaliplatin Combination Chemotherapy will give a treatment response.

Hope your query is answered.
Do write back if you have any doubts.

Regards,
Dr.Vivek
Above answer was peer-reviewed by : Dr. Vaishalee Punj
doctor
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Follow up: Dr. Vivek Chail (6 minutes later)
His blood report is fine . I'm
Just worried as it XXXXXXX last time too and was a bad outcome .

The dr has agreed to add avastin too.

From 65 to 78 is this a big jump?
doctor
Answered by Dr. Vivek Chail (11 minutes later)
Brief Answer:
CEA levels to be recorded a day before treatment and 13 to 56 days later

Detailed Answer:
Hi XXXX,
Thanks for writing back with an update.

1. Glad to know that his blood reports are good.

2. The significant jump as detailed in medical literature would be something from 65 recorded a day before giving chemotherapy to over 250 when recorded 13 to 56 days following chemotherapy as detailed in medical literature when comparing CEA levels before and after treatment.

3. In your father, I still consider the jump to be small and not as discussed in medical research.

4. It will help to know exactly when CEA was 68 and when he started chemotharpy with Oxaliplatin and the after how many days it has risen to 75.

5. If the CEA was 68 more than 4 weeks before start of treatment then it does no hold significance in measurement of present levels.

Hope your query is answered.
Do write back if you have any doubts.

Regards,
Dr.Vivek
Above answer was peer-reviewed by : Dr. Vaishalee Punj
doctor
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Follow up: Dr. Vivek Chail (1 hour later)
Blood test cea was done on 27 March 2014 and then chemo started 31 march .

Cea was 65 on 27 march and on 16 April ( yest) was 78
doctor
Answered by Dr. Vivek Chail (17 minutes later)
Brief Answer:
It is hoped that CEA rise is sign of response to oxyplatin and raltitrexed

Detailed Answer:
Hi XXXX,
Thanks for writing back with an update.

1. The CEA level has risen just about 20 percent from the days before treatment was started.

2. We must take is as an initial surge that has been regularly seen in patients taking oxyplatin and raltitrexed.

3. Addition of avastin should also help in stabilizing the metastasis.

4. It is hoped that the CEA surge is due to response to treatment and the cancer should be under control following completion of oxyplatin and raltitrexed chemotherapy.

Hope your query is answered.
Do write back if you have any doubts.

Regards,
Dr.Vivek
Above answer was peer-reviewed by : Dr. Vaishalee Punj
doctor
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Follow up: Dr. Vivek Chail (8 minutes later)
So you don't think tht it due to the mets progressing ?

U see but the same happened on irinotecan , the cea was rising each month,

Is it normal to jump from 65 to 78?
doctor
Answered by Dr. Vivek Chail (20 minutes later)
Brief Answer:
The jump from 65 to 78 was expected when correlated with literature

Detailed Answer:
Hi XXXX,
Thanks for writing back with an update.

1. Should the CEA level increase 13 units in 20 days and following chemotherapy with oxyplatin and raltitrexed, it is more likely to be a response to treatment.

2. I understand the same happened with irinotecan and subsequently treatment was declared as non responsive and had to be stopped.

3. With available literature based on treatment of colon cancer and liver metastasis with oxyplatin and raltitrexed, we have to wait and watch.

4. Progress of metastasis cannot be explained by this elevation of CEA within 20 days.

Hope your query is answered.
Do write back if you have any doubts.

Regards,
Dr.Vivek
Above answer was peer-reviewed by : Dr. Chakravarthy Mazumdar
doctor
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Follow up: Dr. Vivek Chail (13 minutes later)
Ok so
If it was just a rise of few points then it would not be due to chemo
Response right ?
doctor
Answered by Dr. Vivek Chail (11 minutes later)
Brief Answer:
The 20 percent rise after treatment shows response to chemotherapy likely

Detailed Answer:
Hi XXXX,
Thanks for writing back with an update.

1. If it was few point gradually over weeks then it is due to disease progress.

2. The rise by few points in CEA is a delicate matter and not always conclusive.

3. Since there was obvious 20 percent rise before and after chemotherapy with oxyplatin and raltitrexed therefore it is certainly due to treatment response.

4. The real disease stabilization must be observed carefully in the next few weeks and also hopefully avastin will help in starving the tumor lesions of their blood supply and cause stabilization.

Hope your query is answered.
Do write back if you have any doubts.

Regards,
Dr.Vivek
Above answer was peer-reviewed by : Dr. Chakravarthy Mazumdar
doctor
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Follow up: Dr. Vivek Chail (12 minutes later)
What does transient mean?

Well beofre
Irinotecan it was 8 the irinotecan started oct , cea went to 9 in November and 12 in December .

But then from dec - march end if got to 65.

Oxy started and it reached 78. So between dec- march big rises were taking place so could it be that if chemo not workjng these big rises are continuing ?
doctor
Answered by Dr. Vivek Chail (15 minutes later)
Brief Answer:
This rise is specific and matches with research

Detailed Answer:
Hi XXXX,
Thanks for writing back with an update.

1. Transient means for a short duration or temporary. The raised CEA level is expected to return to pretreatment level in few weeks.

2. In general a steady rise in CEA shows disease progress.

3. This time there is a rise of 13 units in association with oxaliplatin chemotherapy and this is specific when compared to similar research.

Hope your query is answered.
Do write back should you have doubts.

Regards,
Dr.Vivek
Above answer was peer-reviewed by : Dr. Chakravarthy Mazumdar
doctor
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Follow up: Dr. Vivek Chail (1 minute later)
Okay I see . Sorry but I am just so worried .
So u think there's more chance this working than not ?
doctor
Answered by Dr. Vivek Chail (11 minutes later)
Brief Answer:
It is believed that this chemotherapy is showing sign of response to treatm

Detailed Answer:
Hi XXXX,
Thanks for writing back with an update.

1. When our close loved one is fighting cancer then it is normal to get worried and you are making your best efforts to provide him treatment that might work.

2. In cancer treatment we can certainly hope for the best that this chemotherapy will work and your father can have an extended survival.

3. I must say that even in this situation we should not give up hope even though we know that he has stage 4 colon cancer.

4. Miracles do not happen every time still we must not leave any stone unturned even if it means he can live for few extra months. It might be possible that this chemotherapy and avastin can stabilize the disease. Please do not give up on hope.

Regards,
Dr.Vivek
Above answer was peer-reviewed by : Dr. Chakravarthy Mazumdar
doctor
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Follow up: Dr. Vivek Chail (57 minutes later)
U are so right .what kills in cancer is it things like liver failing ?

If they was another rise in cea then ?
doctor
Answered by Dr. Vivek Chail (8 hours later)
Brief Answer:
Imaging is best method of disease assessment

Detailed Answer:
Hi XXXX,
Thanks for writing back with an update.

1. The cancer battle is lost due to deteriorating function of vital organs like liver, kidney, lungs, heart and brain.

2. In sequence the above organs might show signs of failure due to tumor burden and the inability to function in the normal way.

3. The initial rise in CEA after oxaliplatin therapy is thought to be due to the addition of dead cancer cells to the circulation.

4. CEA levels can range from less than hundred to above in thousands.

5. If there is another rise then it does not always mean failure of oxaliplatin. It can mean that the tumor turned more aggressive than before.

6. No two patients will show the same prognosis when discussed with CEA levels and its rise.

7. Response or failure of treatment is best by doing scans after 6 weeks to 3 months.

Regards,
Dr.Vivek
Above answer was peer-reviewed by : Dr. Chakravarthy Mazumdar
doctor
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Follow up: Dr. Vivek Chail (11 minutes later)
Ok although liver funtion tests ok at present , they can deteriorate anytime right ?

U think if chemo fails again other treatment is good like hyperthermia , denderic cell therapy etc?

Also finally, this is a 20 percent cea increase right ?

doctor
Answered by Dr. Vivek Chail (2 hours later)
Brief Answer:
Liver toxicity occurs due to increase in size and number of metastasis

Detailed Answer:
Hi XXXX,
Thanks for writing back with an update.

1. Due to increase in size and number of liver lesions there can be development of decompensated liver toxicity and then the liver functions will become abnormal. This can take 15 days to happen when the liver shows first signs of decompensation.

2. The anti-EGFR antibodies cetuximab and panitumumab are active as single agent in chemoresistant metastatic colorectal cancer. If chemotherapy fails then treatment with anti EGFR antibodies can be thought of. Hyperthermia is more of supportive care. Stem cell therapy might help but it is highly specific and needs to be discussed at the genetic level and is not available at all cancer centers.

3. Yes it is a 20 percent increase in 20 days from 65 to 78. Hoping for the best chemotherapy response for your father.

Hope your query is answered.
Do write back should you have doubts.

Regards,
Dr.Vivek
Above answer was peer-reviewed by : Dr. Chakravarthy Mazumdar
doctor
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Follow up: Dr. Vivek Chail (3 hours later)
Is stem
Cell
Good ? We are in uk

So we should
Continue the chemo right ? If the rise was less than 20
Percent then?
doctor
Answered by Dr. Vivek Chail (1 hour later)
Brief Answer:
Please find details below

Detailed Answer:
Hi XXXX,
Thanks for writing in to us.

1. Stem cell therapy is still in the experimental stage and every one is optimistic about it. There are no serious side effects and can be given to most patients. Your doctor should be knowing details of any specific stem cell research in the UK that involves patients with metastatic colon cancer.

2. Chemotherapy must be continued as oxyplatin and raltitrexed have shown response in many patients. If the rise was less than 20 percent then also continuing chemotherapy was the best option.

Hope your query is answered.
Do write back if you have any doubts.

Regards,
Dr.Vivek
Above answer was peer-reviewed by : Dr. Chakravarthy Mazumdar
doctor
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Follow up: Dr. Vivek Chail (23 minutes later)
Ok great will def continue it

Prob also is since his first chemo
Round he just not eating hardly , no appetite and lost 5 kg in 3 weeks is it notmal to not eat or
Could
The cancer worsening be doing this. ?
doctor
Answered by Dr. Vivek Chail (31 minutes later)
Brief Answer:
Please control further weight loss as it might affect his chemotherapy

Detailed Answer:
Hi XXXX,
Thanks for writing in to us.

1. Losing 5 kg in 3 weeks is a bit more than expected.

2. Can you please tell how much he weighed a month back and how much is it now.

3. Losing more than 10 percent weight is a problem and you have to convince him and change his diet to improve his health.

4. What are his preferences right now in food?

Please give him food with following components.
(i) high-calorie and high-protein foods to prevent malnutrition and more weight loss
(ii) High protein and calorie diet include milk shakes, whole milk, cheese and whole-milk yogurt, and cream to be given in small servings
(iii) Fruits, vegetables and whole grains
(iv) Please give him regular fresh juices and liquids.
(v) His calorie needs will depend on his weight and height. An average person has a calorie intake of 1800 to 2200 kcal.
(vi) Give small feeds every 3 to 4 hours.

5. You need to measure his weight every week or once in two weeks and try your best to increase weight in small amounts.

6. Further weight loss must be controlled otherwise giving chemotherapy might be difficult.

Hope your query is answered.
Do write back if you have any doubts.

Regards,
Dr.Vivek
Above answer was peer-reviewed by : Dr. Chakravarthy Mazumdar
doctor
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Follow up: Dr. Vivek Chail (16 minutes later)
Well
It was 67 kg last august then when he started irinitecan in oct it went after to 61/62 kg.

Then back at 63/ 64 kg

When started oxy it dropped to 61 kg in 3 weeks as he was not hardly eating or drinking.

Now yesterday dropped to 58 kg
doctor
Answered by Dr. Vivek Chail (14 minutes later)
Brief Answer:
Please try to maintain his weight and add more calories to his intake

Detailed Answer:
Hi XXXX,
Thanks for writing in to us.

1. Weight loss exceeding 5 percent in a month is a concern in a patient getting chemotherapy for metastatic colon cancer.

2. Your father has lost 7.9 percent in the last 3 weeks and this requires to be discussed with his doctor.

3. On your part you can give him diets with a daily minimum calorie intake every day. For his weight loss you have to add about 250 kcals extra to his regular diet.

4. Please give him high protein foods and especially that which he likes. If he is having pain and difficulty swallowing solids then it is best to go for high protein liquid foods like yoghurt, milk, fat rich ice cream dessert, fruit juices and premium flavored milk.

5. Giving him these small snacks and liquids every 2 hours will help achieve weight gain. Please wait for sometime if he has nausea and then give him the liquids in sips. Please make sure he is in sitting position when eating and drinking.

6. Please record the weight every week or two and discuss his energy needs with his doctor and if a dietitian if available.

7. Try and motivate your father psychologically as patients on chemotherapy also find themselves mentally fatigued and they need to be encouraged to have good foods.

Hope your query is answered.
Do write back if you have any doubts.

Regards,
Dr.Vivek
Above answer was peer-reviewed by : Dr. Chakravarthy Mazumdar
doctor
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Follow up: Dr. Vivek Chail (6 minutes later)
He not got nausea and can swallow but most it taste of foods etc

Is this due to chemo then ?
doctor
Answered by Dr. Vivek Chail (13 minutes later)
Brief Answer:
Weight loss more due to chemotherapy destroying cancer cells

Detailed Answer:
Hi XXXX,
Thanks for writing in to us.

1. Chemotherapy causes a large scale destruction of cancer cells in the body.

2. In this process there is also a lot of energy demand and therefore the patient becomes weak and looses weight.

3. The weight loss is certainly more due to the chemotherapy.

4. the energy balance must be maintained.

Hope your query is answered.
Do write back if you have any doubts.

Regards,
Dr.Vivek
Above answer was peer-reviewed by : Dr. Chakravarthy Mazumdar
doctor
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Follow up: Dr. Vivek Chail (36 minutes later)
Before chemo
Eating fine and energy was fine . Now he's off foods and sow times gets cravings for certain foods and taste buds changes.

He feel
More tierd and also out of breath and weight loss

So could this be signs chemo working ?

With other 2 previous chemo he had not much effects at all
doctor
Answered by Dr. Vivek Chail (1 hour later)
Brief Answer:
It might indicate signs that chemotherapy is working

Detailed Answer:
Hi XXXX,
Thanks for writing in to us.

1. Since this is a new chemotherapy drug therefore it will take time to get adjusted.

2. Please allow him to take more of foods that he is craving.

3. Chemo is destroying some of the cancer cells and that is why he is feeling tired and having shortness of breath,

4. In the other chemotherapy session he might have had developed resistance and therefore did not show any effects.

Hope your query is answered.
Do write back if you have any doubts.

Regards,
Dr.Vivek
Above answer was peer-reviewed by : Dr. Chakravarthy Mazumdar
doctor
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Follow up: Dr. Vivek Chail (5 hours later)
So if u delekop resistence do u not get side effects much ?

With other one he had bit weight loss n dirrhea

doctor
Answered by Dr. Vivek Chail (18 minutes later)
Brief Answer:
Resistance and side effects are separate areas and might overlap in some

Detailed Answer:
Hi XXXX,
Thanks for writing in to us.

1. Resistance to a medicine and side effect are two different areas of discussion.

2. In resistance the target action is underachieved and there is no control over the disease.

3. Side effects to a particular medicine are known undesirable actions which need to be carefully assessed based on risk and benefit. The number of patient having such incidents and severity of the adverse reactions might differ in every treatment group.

4. Diarrhea is a known side effect of irinotecan when given as the only chemotherapy medicine. Weight loss also occurs. This has little to do with response to treatment

5. Patients with resistance might not develop side effects however some of them can have it.

Hope your query is answered.
Do write back if you have any doubts.

Regards,
Dr.Vivek
Note: For further queries related to kidney problems Click here.

Above answer was peer-reviewed by : Dr. Chakravarthy Mazumdar
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Answered by
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Dr. Vivek Chail

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What Does Rise In CEA Count After Chemotherapy Indicate?

Brief Answer: Transient rise in CEA means chemotherapy is working Detailed Answer: Hi XXXX, Thanks for writing in to us. I have read through your query in detail. Please find my observations below. 1. Research has been done on level of CEA before and after chemotherapy in patients of colon cancer. 2. It is understood that an initial rise in CEA level during effective chemotherapy in colorectal cancer patients may not always indicate progression of disease but may be a transient CEA surge in patients responding to chemotherapy with Oxaliplatin Combination Chemotherapy. 3. Saying that rise in CEA means treatment response is poor is completely wrong. 4. CEA level is not the only factor to measure response to chemotherapy. 5. Your father should complete the course of chemotherapy scheduled as given by oncologist. Hope this answers your question. Please feel free to correct any oversight in my interpretation of your problems and discuss them in detail as per your requirements. Hope your query is answered. Do write back if you have any doubts. Regards, Dr.Vivek